Destructive Aspect of Lord (Old Age, Disease, Death, Time) (103)

Destructive Aspect of Lord (Old Age, Disease, Death, Time) (103)

Summary:

Lesson 103 shows that only admiring Creation & Sustenance is 2/3rd mature. Most stop here. But a fully mature person embraces Destruction also.

Source: Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11: Verse 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31


SUMMARY:

  • Viśva rūpa darśanam requires two things:
    • Physical eyes: ability to see the physical universe. All born with this.
    • Divya cakṣuḥ: training one's mind to recognize all that is seen is the total physical body of Īśvara (virāt).
      • Requires a managed life, prepared mind and Vedantic teaching (study of B.G CH 2, 7, 9)
        • If have Vedantic knowledge but lack prepared mind, what is the consequence?
          • Like Rāvaṇa who saw Rāma, he didn't enjoy Īśvara darśanam, but manuśya-darśanam.
            • Missed yet another opportunity for a teacher.
          • Why hasn't Rāvaṇa recognize divinity in Rāma?
            • Haven't questioned personal opinions about __.
            • Intellect/emotion out of balance.
            • (Addressed in CH13).
      • What is the Vedantic teaching?
        • Īśvara manifests in form of the material universe. Thus universe is no longer “inert matter”.
        • Training one's attitude to look upon universe as body of Bhagavān.
          • Inner training is born out of ongoing scriptural involvement.
        • Example:
          • Physical eyes: See banana, apple, laddu.
          • Divya cakṣu (3rd eye): Fruits are prasāda, because they are of Īśvara's material cause.
            • Immediately they become sacred, holy, sanctified.
            • NOTE: 3rd eye is symbol of viveka. Discriminating intellect cable of discerning real/unreal, dharma/adharma.
  • Conclusion: Perspective of world is not about looking for better lokās (present/future), but a manner/mentality born out of scriptural understanding.
    • This provides viśva-rūpa Need not stand in long queue buying tickets to see a devata in temple. No crowd!
  • Divya cakṣu has been temporarily blessed by Krishna to Arjuna, thereafter ordinary shines with aliveness, vibrancy… similar how world shines to children.
    • Why does world shine to children?
      • Because ahaṃkāra (I sense) is in development. Hence it hasn't yet categorized/fragmented everything according to rāga/dveṣa.
    • Consequently Arjuna undergoes emotional transformation, expressing wonderment V15-22.
  • In V18, Arjuna's reverence for Krishna grows, realizing Krishna is an avatāra of Īśvara.
    • Because Arjuna went to Gurukulam, keeping with tradition of brāhmana, kṣatriya, vaiśya – he had knowledge of Vedas.
      • He remembers Mundaka Upaniṣad (line: atha parā yathā tada akṣaram adhigamyate), where Brahman is called “akṣaram” (pristine fullness, imperishable):
        • Krishna, you are not only viśvarūpa (aparā-prakṛti / aneka rūpa). You are also arūpa Īśvaraḥ (nirguṇa Brahma).
        • Further Arjuna adds, tvamasya viśvasya paraṁ nidhānam: supportless support / satyam / independent.
    • Then śāśvata dharma goptā:
      • You/I were born into an already available world with physical-moral orders already in operation.
        • Meaning, they are maintained by the beginningless One, Īśvara… and not you/I.
        • Hence moral order is sanātanaḥ (permanent).
      • And how is something permanent maintained?
        • By eliminating whatever disturbs it.
        • EG we don't need to produce health. Health is a natural order. If any cause disturbs health, immune system automatically eliminates it.
      • Equally, when dharma/harmony/rhythm is distributed to great extent, the immunity principle of avatāra takes place.
        • EG: Poison in stomach = purging avatāra. Spec in eye = tear avatāra. Cold = sneezing avatāra.
        • So whenever humans disturb the order to large extent, Bhagavān's sneezing avatāra manifests and blows them away.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 19

anādi-madhya-antam ananta-vīryam
ananta-bāhum śaśi-sūrya-netram
paśyāmi tvām dīpta-hutāśa-vaktram
sva-tejasā viśvam idam tapantam
I see you (as one) who has no beginning, middle or end, who has limitless power, who has countless arms, whose eyes are the moon and the sun. whose mouth is the blazing fire, and who scorches this universe with your radiance.

  • śaśi-sūrya-netram: Krishna, your eyes are sun & moon.
    • Every sense organ has a presiding deity. EG:
      • Agni-deva is presiding deity of speech (vāk). Because fire:
        • (1) illumines: enlightens the subject matter.
        • (2) burns: causes hurt/destruction.
        • Hence agni-deva becomes speech organ of Īśvara.
      • Sūrya-deva is presiding deity of eye.
        • Because without sunlight (light in general), eyes are unable to see form.
        • Hence sūrya-deva becomes eye of Īśvara.
  • dīpta-hutāśa-vaktram: Agni-deva is the mouth of Lord because just as mouth swallows everything, so does fire burn/destroy.
  • Viśvam idaṁ tapantam: Who scorches earth with the heat of your Sun.
    • When bearing discomfort caused by humidity or heat, remember “O Lord, I am intimately experiencing your viśva-rūpa”.
      • This serves as shock absorber in challenging times of life. Else pain is increased when lose sight of big picture.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 20

dyāvā-pṛthivyoḥ idam antaram hi
vyāptam tvayā ekena diśaḥ ca sarvāḥ
dṛṣṭvā adbhutam rūpam ugram tava idam
loka-trayam pravyathitam mahātman

This space between heaven and earth as well as all the quarters are indeed pervaded by You alone. Having seen this wonderful (and) fierce form of yours, all the three worlds are frightened, Oh great Lord.

  • dyāvā-pṛthivyoḥ idam antaram hi vyāptam: gap between earth and heavens is pervaded by You. Metaphor:
    • Earth is feet of Bhagavān (kamalapatrākṣa).
    • Upper sky is head of Bhagavān.
    • Central portion (gap between) is entire Universe (jagat).
    • Symbolized in Śiva:
      • Blue-neck (sky / heavens).
      • Ornaments (mālā) around neck of Śiva: represents all planets, stars, objects of Universe.
  • Diśaśca sarvāḥ: in all 10 directions is Your body.
    • 4 for N,S,E,W.
    • 4 intermediary: NE, NW, etc.
    • 2 up/down.
    • Meaning Arjuna is unable to measure anything with a definitive value.
      • EG: size, shape, time, color, pain/pleasure. Because opposites are both at once.
  • idam adbhutam rūpam dṛṣṭvāḥ: Because I was looking at your rūpa from personally coloured vision, including what is to be considered favourable/unfavourable, worrying about future… I couldn't see the obvious.
    • But having now forgotten this person called “Arjuna” (who bears distortions / me-mine)… You alone are.
  • ugram rūpam: For the first time Arjuna sees the other aspect of Total reality, destruction.
    • Ajuna sees fiery mouth of Lord, symbolizing destruction principle.
    • We all admire His creative/sustaining principle (sṛṣṭi / sthiti kāraṇam). But death/destruction/ending principle (laya-kāraṇam), we're uncomfortable.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 21

amī hi tvām sura-saṅghāḥ viśanti
kecit bhītāḥ prāñjalayaḥ gṛṇanti
svasti iti uktvā maharṣi-siddha-saṅghāḥ
stuvanti tvām stutibhiḥ puṣkalābhiḥ
These hosts of God are entering You indeed. Frightened, some (of them) pray with joined palms. Having uttered the word ‘peace', groups of sages and siddhas praise You with complete hymns.

  • Verse brings out the attitudes we have towards the WHOLE, depending on what we understand.
  • surasaṅghā amī viśanti: All devas throughout existence who are informed/educated… appreciate viśva-rūpa with prayerful attitude.
    • Even though Your destructive aspect is frightening, their maturity makes them face it with equanimity, just as with creation and sustenance.
      • Because they apprehend destruction as the grand order maintaining harmony in universe.
      • It is dharmic destruction.
  • kecit bhītāḥ: Mind's who are uneducated (yet to remove false notions of Īśvara's reality), their relationship with God is one of fear/wrath.
    • EG: If I don't do my pūjā, Bhagavān will punish me. (EG India: cut nose and put chilli powder. EG West: Hell).
    • Although fear is supposedly required to keep person superficially dharmic long enough, until mind becomes discriminating.
      • EG: Covid heavy fines work to prevent people violating government rules.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 22

rudra-ādityāḥ vasavaḥ ye ca sādhyāḥ
viśve aśvinau marutaḥ ca uṣmapāḥ ca
gandharva-yakṣa-asura-siddha-saṅghāḥ
vīkṣante tvām vismitāḥ ca eva sarve
Rudras, adityas, vasus, sadhyas, visvedevas, the two asvins, maruts, pitrus, groups of gandharvas, yakshas, asuras, and siddhas, are all looking at You with wonder.

  • Viśva rūpa is accessible to not only to Arjuna, but whoever has worked hard for divya cakṣuḥ.
  • Who are they?
    • Rudrāḥ: 11 rudrās. Group of celestials in higher lokās.
    • Vasavaḥ: 8 vasūs. Prominent celestials. Special right to receive oblations in rituals.
    • Aśvinau: ashvini kumaras / aśvins.
    • Marutaḥ: According to scriptures, there's 49 marut devatas.
    • Ūṣmapaḥ: pitru devatas, divided into 7 classes.
      • Devatas of pitṛ loka: Where spirits of the departed ancestors live, per Hindu culture. Remembered annually.
    • gandharva-yakṣa-asura-siddha-saṅghāḥ: Groups of each.
  • Sarve vīkṣante: all wonderstruck by viśva-rūpa as Arjuna
  • Destruction aspect is described in verse 23-30…

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 23

rūpam mahat te bahu-vaktra-netram
mahā-bāho bahu-bāhu-ūru-pādam
bahu-udaram bahu-daṃṣṭrā-karālam
dṛṣṭvā lokāḥ pravyathitāḥ tathā aham
Oh Lord! People are frightened by seeing Your huge form which has many mouths and eyes, which has many arms, thighs, and feet, which has many abdomens, and which is fierce with many tusks; so also am I (frightened).

  • Regarding the mouth, it's not a physical mouth, but symbolizes time principle which destroys (giving way for new).
  • Time and space can never be separate from jagat (viśva-rūpa).
    • Meaning time-space-objects is jagat, and jagat is time-space-objects. They are inseparable.
  • For instance, it's impossible to imagine creation (of objects) without simultaneously bringing factor of time-space into it.
    • We can prove this with deep sleep:
      • When jagat is resolved in deep sleep, not only objects go-away, but so does experience of time-space resolve.
      • Then upon waking (either dream/waking state), along with objects comes time-space also.
      • Analysis gives us two insights:
        1. I don't need time-space to exist. I am other then time-space (thus jagat).
          • Meaning, end of time-space, is not end of self.
        2. Time-space is intrinsic property of Creation (jagat).
  • Time (kāla) is one of names given to Lord Śiva in Sri Rudram: kālāgni-rudrāya nīlakaṇṭhāya mrutyuṁjayāya sarveśvarāya sadāśivāya śrīmanmahādevāya namaḥ
    • Meaning destruction aspect (loss, death, disease, decay) needs to be welcomed as much as creation & sustenance. Because accepting 2/3rd = 2/3rd mature.
    • Thus Arjuna will soon get frightened because yet to accept that viśva-rūpa has pairs of opposites (duality), which all resolves into One reality.
      • EG: If look at anything in life: Born, Is, Gone. Born, Is. Gone.
        • Born = Brahmā.
        • Is = Viṣṇu.
        • Gone = Śiva.
      • EG: Cell is born. Cells sustained. Cell ages, eventually dies. Only to make space for healthier cell.
  • Human challenge: Welcomes birth and then wants to sustain it forever. That speaks immaturity, because it's denying 3rd aspect of Creation. EG:
    • Anti-aging
    • Health-industry: shuns the principle of decay, death.
    • Dying/death a topic that is hardly brought up and considered inappropriate.
    • Relationships: Maturity means, I embrace all 3 stages equally: Birth/union of two people, sustenance and separation.
    • Accordingly, a person that is together, is one who equally integrates 3 aspects of jagat.
  • In case of Arjuna, he is in process of developing maturity, because still won't accept 3rd aspect in Verse 23-30…
    • EG: We go to movie, but refuse to see scenes of violence/bloodshed.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 24

nabhaḥ-spṛśam dīptam aneka-varṇam
vyātta-ānanam dīpta-viśāla-netram
dṛṣṭvā hi tvām pravyathita-antara-ātmā
dhṛtim na vindāmi śamam ca viṣṇo
Indeed, I am frightened at heart by seeing You who is touching the sky, who is brilliant with many colours, whose mouths are wide open, and who has large fiery eyes, I do not find courage or composure, Oh Lord !

  • diptam anekavarṇam: You are effulgent with millions of stars, planets, manifold colors. Since they all abide in You.
  • dṛṣṭvā hi tvām pravyathita-antara-ātmā: Seeing this mouth of protruding canines, my inner most heart is frightened. Disturbed. Tormented.
  • For this reason, śamam ca viṣṇo, I lost my peace of mind. I am restless.
    • Reality of life striking Arjuna.
    • EG: In old age, immunity is weakened. Every disease is stronger. Thus diseases come, loneliness comes, people go away. It's easy to speak “health” while young.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 25

daṃṣṭrā-karālāni ca te mukhāni
dṛṣṭvā eva kāla-anala-sannibhāni
diśaḥ na jāne na labhe ca śarma
prasīda deveśa jagat-nivāsa
Having just seen Your mouths which are fierce with tusks and which are like the fire of dissolution. I do not recognise the quarters, nor do I find peace. Be gracious, Oh Lord of lords, who is the abode of the Universe!

  • Again, Arjuna is seeing only mouth.
  • Te mukhāni: Your mouth with protruding teeth (which symbolize pain caused to individual) makes me uncomfortable.
  • kāla-anala-sannibhāni: …which are like the fire of dissolution.
    • Upon new brahmāji day: 5 elements manifest seeming order: space, air, fire, water, earth.
    • Time of pralaya (brahmāji night): Order is reversed. First earth resolves into water. Water dissolves into fire.
      • This process is called: Fire of dissolution (pralaya kāla agni). Into which 14 lokās are absorbed.
    • Hence, Your mouth is like this.
  • Furthermore, diśaḥ na jāne, Mouth pervading all over, I lost sense of direction.
    • Because direction is only valid from standpoint of Sun. When see totality of jagat, direction (NSEW) is meaningless.
  • Again, na labhe ca śarma, I have no peace seeing so much swallowing in Your mouth.
    • IE: Firmness of jñānam is required to embrace all aspects of existence.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 26

amī ca tvāṃ dhṛtarāṣṭrasya putrāḥ
sarve sahaivāvanipālasaṅghaiḥ
bhīṣmo droṇaḥ sūtaputrastathāsau
sahāsmadīyairapi yodhamukhyaiḥ
All these sons of dhṛtarāṣṭra along with hosts of kings, bhīṣmaḥ, droṇaḥ, and that son of the charioteer along with the prominent warriors of ours (are entering) You.

  • What you resist, persists. Arjuna is resisting seeing the mouth, thus Arjuna now sees the mouth swallowing in closeup.
    • How does Bhagavān swallow everything?
      • Just as human slowly swallow food, so does Bhagavān's time slowly swallow us. EG: Age, disease, weakness, death.
  • What is Arjuna seeing slowly gobbled up? saha asmadīyaiḥ api yodha-mukhyaiḥ: dharmic warriors like Abhimanyu (Arjuna's son), which he is unable to accept.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 27

vaktrāṇi te tvaramāṇāḥ viśanti
daṃṣṭrā-karālāni bhayānakāni
kecit vilagnāḥ daśana-antareṣu
sandṛśyante cūrṇitaiḥ uttama-aṅgaiḥ
Speeding, they enter Your terrible mouths which are fierce with tusks. Stuck between the teeth, some (of them) are seen with (their) heads crushed.

  • te vaktrāṇi viśanti tvaramāṇāḥ: These people are entering your mouth in a rush.
    • Like a python who keeps mouth open, and preys enter it unknowingly. Python simply closes mouth.
  • Accordingly, I am seeing: kecit vilagnāḥ daśanāntareṣu, some people are caught in-between the teeth.
  • Add to that, cūrṇitaiḥ uttamāṅgaiḥ, they are partially crushed. Head, leg, stomach crushed.
    • Can be seen as symbol of diseases in life. One by one, organ failure, kidney/liver failure, heart attack, haemorrhage in brain.
    • Despite medical advances, can't be stopped completely. Thus prepare yourself now, to ease potentially sorrow in the future.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 28

yathā nadīnām bahavaḥ ambu-vegāḥ
samudram eva abhimukhāḥ dravanti
tathā tava amī nara-loka-vīrāḥ
viśanti vaktrāṇi abhivijvalanti

These heroes of the world of men enter your blazing mouths, just as many streams of rivers flow towards the ocean only.

  • Even though it appears rivers originate from mountains… fact is ocean water evaporates > clouds > rain > mountain > rivers. Then all rivers eventually find their way back to the SAME ocean.
    • Equally, every jīva is like a river travelling to ātmā-jñānam (brahma-vidyā) by means of ācārya & pramāṇa… leading to highest fulfillment of human life.
      • Any delay or sidetracking along the path, is due to jīva's own moment-to-moment decisions.
      • Each day, is a fresh opportunity to resist the pull of old habits. Thus make a difference today.
  • In same way, tathā tava amī nara-loka-vīrāḥ, all people (who took refuge in house, spouse, arrow/bullet proof vests, position in society)… are entering Your mouth anyway.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 29

yathā pradīptam jvalanam pataṅgāḥ
viśanti nāśāya samṛddha-vegāḥ
tathā eva nāśāya viśanti lokāḥ
tava api vaktrāṇi samṛddha-vegāḥ

Again, people enter Your mouths with great speed for (their own) destruction just as moths enter the blazing fire with great speed for (their own) destruction.

  • Verse gives example how all living beings are rushing towards Lord's mouth
  • Small insects are attracted to a flame in an oil lamp. They rush towards the flame to their destruction. Helplessly attracted by the brightness.
    • Some are burned quickly. Some get stuck in the oil and die slowly.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 30

lelihyase grasamānaḥ samantāt
lokān samagrān vadanaiḥ jvaladbhiḥ
tejobhiḥ āpūrya jagat samagram
bhāsaḥ tava ugrāḥ pratapanti viṣṇo

Swallowing all the worlds on every side with thy flaming mouths, thou art licking Thy lips. Thy fierce rays, filling the whole world with radiance, are burning Oh! Viṣṇu.

  • It seems swallowing all people, Bhagavān has no sympathy.
    • This is because the person who thinks this… hasn't accepted death as much as birth. There's no higher/lower ranking between them.
      • EG: We celebrate birth, but mourn death. Thus we suffer.
      • Why don't we talk about death?
        • Because our relationship about it is loaded with false notions.
        • EG: In USA, nurses report attitude of Covid dying patients “This can't be happening”. There's anger, disbelief.
      • Critical to get comfortable with dying process before death. Hence CH8.
        • Because addressing it, alone matures you up towards entire life. And prepares you for inevitable. Don't want to be preparing when reality finally hits.
  • Lack of Bhagavān's sympathy is seen in, lelihyase: you are relishing in all this, licking your own lips.
  • Along with that (2nd line) (tejobhiḥ āpūrya jagat samagram, bhāsaḥ tava ugrāḥ pratapanti viṣṇo):
    • You pervade with your fierce heat of radiation… scorching, tormenting all people.
    • Symbolism:
      • Kāla (time) is affecting you right now, because every moment, our body is getting older.
      • During class, older.
      • Thus we are all slowly cooked (radiated) by time.
      • How many years of cooking? Some dishes cook long time.
  • This makes Arjuna question the nature of God, who is supposed to be compassionate, all beauty. But he is witnessing otherwise.
  • Arjuna has also seen that he won the dharmic war.

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11, Verse 31

ākhyāhi me ko bhavānugrarūpo
namaḥ astu te devavara prasīda
vijñātum icchāmi bhavantam ādyam
na hi prajānāmi tava pravṛttim

Who are you with this fierce form? Tell me, Oh supreme Lord! Salutation be to You. Be gracious. I desire to know You, the primal one. Indeed, I do not know Your function.

  • kaḥ bhavān ugrarūpaḥ: Who are you O! fierce formed one… instilling terror. You seem to be worse then a terrorist.
  • ākhyāhi me: Do tell, because I have doubts.
    • Only when problems torment… fundamental questions of life originate.
      • Until then too busy: eating, drinking, marrying.
    • What are the fundamental questions?
      • Why couldn't Bhagavān create a disease, pain-free world.
      • Why did He create the world in the first place.
      • Why couldn't He only have jīvanmuktas, instead of creating seekers striving through lifetimes of struggle to finally discover liberation.
      • How come He didn't create world of enjoyment only. Why add suffering also.
      • Why would He allow adharma to percolate, and inflict pain on innocent sincere people.
    • So nature of humanity is to turn thoughts on Bhagavān, Gīta, Upaniṣads, guru in times of overwhelm.
      • However this is called: smaśāna vairāgyam (funeral dispassion). After 2 days, back to: eat, drink, marry.
  • Ugrarūpaḥ bhavān kaha ākhyāhi, namaḥ astu prasīda: Since I'm unable to withstand the overwhelming form of terror, may You be gracious and show me Your pleasing self again.
    • Because now I really want to know WHO and WHAT is Your function in this Universe, especially in reference to jīvās.
    • So far You seem to have only one job description: Eating and swallowing.
  • What's more, vijñātum icchāmi bhavantam ādyam: What is the cause of the Universe, and what existed before sṛṣṭi (creation).
  • Conclusion:
    • Arjuna is showing 3rd quality of excellent student (2 other qualities in last session), which is:
      • Despite his fearful paralysis and intellectual disorientation, he now wishes to remove the confusion by asking: What is the purpose showing me this terrible aspect of the One?
  • Bhagavān is happy with Arjuna's question, thus answers in Verse 32-34.

 

Keywords: acarya, acharya, ahamkara, aksaram, aksharam, arupa, ashvinau, asivins, asvinau, atma-jnanam, avatara, bhagavan, brahma, brahma-vidya, brahmana, cakshu, caksu, darsanam, darshana, dvesa, dvesha, gita, ishvara, isvara, jiva, jivanmukta, jnana, kala, karanam, ksatriya, kshatriya, loka, mala, manushya, manusya, nirguna, pitr, pramana, prasada, puja, raga, rama, ravana, rudra, rupa, sanatana, sasvata dharma gopta, shiva, shristhi, siva, smasana, smashana, srishti, srsti, surya, upanisad, ushmapa, usmapah, vairagya, vaishya, vaisya, vak, vasus, virat, vishnu, vishvarupa, visnu, visvarupa, viswaroopa


Credit for help in Bhagavad Gita teaching given to Swami Dayananda (Arsha Vidya), Paramarthananda & Chinmaya Mission.

Recorded 25 Nov, 2020

 

7 Comments

  1. Robert Green on November 30, 2020 at 8:51 pm

    Hi Andre.
    You ask, “ what are the fundamental questions “ ? And then you list them.
    Even after many hours of study and listening to your talks I find that I cannot give clear and certain answers.
    Is it possible to address these In class ?
    I know Tomas has asked some of these and you have probably covered the reasons with your explanation of why Loukas must be formed to satisfy karma, but I wonder how many of us could give clear and direct answers.

    • mm Andre V on November 30, 2020 at 9:02 pm

      Can bring up in class whenever wish. But first answer them on your own.

  2. Robert Green on November 30, 2020 at 9:03 pm

    I have done that.
    Not happy with my answers!
    Cheers.

  3. Robert Green on December 1, 2020 at 5:13 pm

    “ why couldn’t Bhagavad create a disease, pain free world”?
    He could, but he didn’t because the Lokas exist to satisfy the Jiva’s need to work out karma.
    “ Why did he create the world in the first place”?
    He didn’t create the world because Jiva’s have always existed, so the world has always existed.
    “ why couldn’t he only have Jivanmuktas, instead of creating seekers striving through lifetimes of struggle to finally discover liberation”?
    All Jiva’s are borne ignorant.
    If they had knowledge their would be no reason for them to interact with the world, therefore according to his laws Isvara wouldn’t provide one.

  4. Robert Green on December 1, 2020 at 5:20 pm

    Part Two.
    “How come he didn’t create a world of enjoyment only. Why add suffering also”?
    Without suffering there would be no learning and no enjoyment. This is a world of relativity where things find definition in their opposite and lessons are learned through the pain of papa karma.
    “ why would he allow Adharma to percolate and inflict pain on innocent, sincere people “?
    Their are no innocent people. It only appears that way if you isolate karma to one lifetime.
    Also, the world is value neutral. We create suffering through the misuse of our free will.
    Isvara never interferes, just provides the effects of causal events.

    • mm Andre V on December 2, 2020 at 9:02 pm

      Firstly, the context under which questions were asked is for person that’s experiencing pain, and suddenly fundamental questions come. Meaning, one will likely ask black/white questions at this point.

      Like asking: Why do I think hurtful thoughts, when I know they’re unhealthy? It’s not a 1 line answer. It’s mixture of psychology, prarabdha, freewill, sancita, agami karma, past lives, parents, school teachers, friends, environment, type of books read, cultural standards, influence of work environment, quality of food, etc.

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      > “ why couldn’t Bhagavad create a disease, pain free world”?
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      Black/white thinking.

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      “ Why did he create the world in the first place”? >
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      He didn’t create. Everything already exists. The question itself is coming from limited understanding, implying “Creation started at some point”.

      What does limitless mean? Nothing is not possible. Everything is possible, both up and down, pain and pleasure. World is just one possibility. Jiva is another.

      No different to what quantum physics says, “Everything is a possibility… therefore it exists”.

      Vedanta adds the principle of what holds everything together, IE: Law of dharma (intelligence that makes everything interact in harmony), and law of karma (cause-effect, action-reaction).

      So even though adharma is a possibility, there is a principle of dharma which makes us know, what is appropriate/inappropriate.

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      “ why couldn’t he only have Jivanmuktas, instead of creating seekers striving through lifetimes of struggle to finally discover liberation”?
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      Why aren’t only A+ students found in school class? Because each jiva has free will how to make use of their day. Some resort to partial study, some to play. Some to serious contemplation.

      Some play too much and get sick.

      What’s the point of jivanmukta roaming earth, when his/her intellect sees essence-less of names-forms.

      Only reason jiva is born is to continue swimming in worldly objects, taking them to be real.

      One that recognizes their self as free, has no desire for world, although body-mind will continue living until prarabdha karma is exhausted one fine day.

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      How come he didn’t create a world of enjoyment only. Why add suffering also”?
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      Suffering causes growth. Growth produces wisdom. Furthermore, opposites is physical expression of infinity.

      If there is only up, only enjoyment, then that doesn’t qualify “infinity”. Infinity is not limited by any possibility.

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      “ why would he allow Adharma to percolate and inflict pain on innocent, sincere people “?
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      If mad man drives irresponsibly and kills happy family, then mad man will be subject to consequences. Will learn from mistake, which will lift his moral, and have another chance next lifetime.

      What of the happy family? Reborn, another chance.

      Question “why” here is black/white thinking.

  5. Robert Green on December 3, 2020 at 6:42 am

    Very detailed answers Andre.
    Thank you 🙏

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